Okay, great. Well, thanks so much, Maggie, for
being here. I thought we might just start
with you talking about what your family life
was like when you and Don were kids, where
you grew up.
Well, I'll give you a lot of context, if you
want. We grew up in Oak Cliff, and we were
a family of seven, of five kids. Don was the
only boy, the treasured son of four girls.
He was a second-born child, and it was a
working middle-class family. And we were in a neighborhood
full of like families. These families had
bought their homes on the GI Bill, these little
chalky white structures with green and blue and
black trim. And it was a neighborhood
full of kids, full of life. And many of them
went to 12 years of school together. So we
always had something to do. We didn't have
computers or cell phones or video games, but
so we were in charge of making our own
entertainment. And parents didn't normally want
us in the
house, so we were outside. We were outside
playing, riding bikes, roller skating, playing
street baseball, and mostly staying out of
trouble, really. There was just a good standard,
I would say, in this neighborhood. There was a
good deal of people who attended church
regularly. It was probably, if you can say
typical, traditional middle-class family,
I would say, that we fit into that. Our father
was a union sheet metal worker, and mom was
a stay-at-home mom, so I don't ever remember
fearing or thinking that wasn't going to be.
It was stable. We had stability. So the life
was like, daddy worked eight hours or however
long those people kept him on the job, putting
in his sheet metal, excuse me, sheet metal
dog work. And come home exhausted, mom had
supper on the table every night. It was just
a family thing. It was taken for granted, I
think. Mom got us off. A big part of the
Baker life, and I believe it was always in
Don's life, was church. It permeated our life.
And the big reason, I'd say, that began in that
our grandfather was an Assembly of God
minister. Very, very staunch, and a hill fire
and brimstone preacher. And we grew up most
of our lives under that ministry. My mother
would often say, church is our life, and that
is no understatement. Sunday morning, Sunday
night, youth group also, Wednesday night,
revivals meant going every night. Mostly they
were in the summer, thank goodness. Church,
we didn't get home after 10 often. But we had a
good influx of scriptures and prayer.
This is something I believe that had a very big
impact on my brother's life, but I would
say in a positive way. I think we grew up
hearing, Jesus loves me this I know. We grew
up hearing, Jesus loves the little children of
the world. We are all precious in his sight.
And so that's the earliest, you know, things
that my brother and I, we were all exposed
to and said. And of course, as he got older, we
didn't hear that same message. He didn't
hear that same message when he was dealing with
his sexuality issues. But in the letters
that I have at home, he is repeatedly saying,
you know, being thankful for what he has.
He's praying about this and he thought it was
so important to be involved in his church.
So that's just in almost everything I
consistently saw in his work. When he was
abroad, when
he was teaching, he, it was just a very
personal experience for him. He was a very religious
person. And I realized that even more when I
was reading his letters. And you know, it's
like a preacher in a way. But he got this from
our grandfather. Our grandfather, don't
want to go back too far here, but our
grandfather had no more than a fifth grade education.
But he was ordained in the assemblies of God.
And he was, at some times would preach on
the street. He was a very, I want to say,
zealous in a negative way. He had a lot of
conviction that he had a certain ministry. He
wanted to present the Word of God as he
sought to people. And he would have services in
the park over at Old City Park. And sometimes
would stand on the street corner and yell, you
know, Jesus is coming. He would proclaim.
And at one point he was taken to jail for
disturbing the peace. And he just wouldn't
promise the jailer that he would quit doing
that. They said, well, let you out of, you'll
stop doing it. Well, after a while, this jailer
heard a lot of noise and he thought there
was some fighting going on. Well, my
grandfather was holding a service in the jail.
And the
jailer was like, I'll let you out if you'll
quit. And he says, I will not quit this. And
the guy said, oh, okay, I'll get you out. It
was just a lot of extra baggage, I guess,
in the jail there. So he got out. So I think
there was probably something there that we
all absorbed into our lives, a determination,
conviction, saying what you think and feel.
And I just think Don probably got a higher dose
of that than us. But his approach and
he lived it, I would say. But his approach was
a more quieter, softer, let's come together.
Here are my beliefs. But I believe it drove him.
I believe it drove him throughout his
activism was this belief that he had a mission.
Do you ever remember your grandfather preaching
about sexuality? I don't specifically, but I'm
sure he did.
I've thought about that question a lot as I've
written about this. And that's kind of
a later phenomenon, right? I'm not sure
preachers were really talking about that until
the 70s.
I think you're right. And because people
weren't coming out as much, it was a more closeted
thing and people probably lived a more dual
lifestyle if they were. So my parents, their
church spoke out against it and they were
dedicated because to that church, because
it was linked to the church my grandfather had
begun. But I know they did say that they
would hear things. They would kind of just
shake their head at it. So much negatism,
even though the minister was aware that they
had a gay son. They were just very condemning.
And the thing that bothers me immensely, one of
the things is that it's not the problem
in that church. The issues that involve that
church have to do infidelity. It's not the
infidelity, domestic abuse, cheating, lying.
But it's just when you get a good response
from the amen corner, I think it just gives
fodder for their sermons. You're going to
get a lot of praise, maybe more money. But it's
just popular to talk about something
that really didn't pertain and people felt safe.
Oh yes, yes, preach it brother. But
it really was not the issues of that
congregation. Or I would say it was so many
today. It's
not the issue. Or the real issues that affect
them. And I just think we're just not looking
at the truths that are there. Where did Don go
after graduating high school? He went to
East Texas State University for a period of
time. I don't remember how long. And he met
some people there that he knew into his
adulthood. And then he went to UT Austin. I remember
going to that school for the first time. We
lived such a sheltered life. And seeing people
with long ponytails, wearing fringed vests. I'm
going, oh my God, my brother is going
into this weird place. This was in the late 60s?
Yes. He graduated in 65 from high school.
So this was then. And it was there, I believe,
he sought out some counseling and a psychological
or social worker to talk about his sexuality.
He was starting to feel that he needed, there
was something there he needed to address. And I
have strong feelings. And this mental
health professional, I believe it was a female,
suggested that he go into the military. And
that would be a solution for him to deal with.
So he did do that. Into the Navy. As the village
people would say, in the Navy. Yes, exactly.
And he did. And what he did from there was
he just dove head in to the life. And I think I
said earlier, he got Sailor of the Month,
got a little commendation letter for that. I
have a picture of him in his room there.
He became, when he was stationed in
Bremerhaven, he loved that. As far as the interactions
with the church and on the base, I have
pictures of all these members of his church, husbands
and wives and children. He has their names in
this scrapbook. And he headed the pages.
People, beautiful people. He was just so
passionate about everything he did. So he was a member
of the, I think it was PO, the men of the
chapel. And he was a member of the church
and he was on a committee for that. He was over
organizing productions with the church.
He was in choir. So he got a little letter of
appreciation from his commanding officer
for the countless hours that he spent dealing
with these children and people in the play.
It was a success. So it's just, he dove in to,
he just embraced his opportunity. Here's
a little boy from Oak Cliff and here he was
over in this country as well. And he just
embraced it totally. And the scrapbook was full
of places he went, tours he took. If
there was a conference, a religious conference,
he went to it. So he has the brochures from
that. So he kept so many mementos of his
journeys through life. So the military was a
big part
of that. A big thing for him. And managed
somehow not to be deployed to Vietnam. He
was in communications, a communications
specialist. And I believe that's his security position.
So they were keeping him for that. I mean, I
don't know the workings of all that, but
I do know he was in communications and it was,
had to have security clearance. So never
really talked about it.
Well, that's fascinating because, you know,
this is still in the midst of the Lavender
Scare where they are refusing to grant security
clearances to people who are gay or lesbian.
So he was solidly in the closet at this point.
Exactly. Exactly. Good point. And yes, they
couldn't have known anything at that time.
And I'm thinking he was taking to heart maybe
what that counselor said, well, this is going
to quote unquote cure me. And so, you know, it
was, he just took advantage of opportunities,
just spent his energy delving in that. If there
were other things that went on with
his sexuality at the time, I did not, I
haven't, I'm not aware of that. But I know he
was searching.
I know it was there. I know it never went away.
Yeah. So he, you know, comes out of the
military still kind of wrestling with this.
When did
he finally come to terms with it? And when did
he come out to you and the rest of the family?
I can tell you when he came out to me, and I
don't know if you remember if it was before
he told my mom, but he was probably testing the
waters with me. He was sending me some
brochures and information of articles by a
theologian or a mental health professional.
And he would write some comments, you know, I
find this interesting. This is something
that is helping me. And so he did come to me,
and I believe it was early 75. It was
late 74 or early 75 because I remember because
before I was at that time. And he came to
my home and to visit with me. I was separating
from my husband. And he came to spend some
time with us. And he wanted to tell me. And so
here I had these articles. What kind of
was going to happen? I have to talk. And so he
told me he was gay and that he had done
a lot of soul searching. He had sought help,
counseling. He said there was a time when
he stood in every prayer line that he could to
get healed. There was a time when he felt
that it was an affliction and that he would be,
you know, an eternal damnation. And one
ministry said, you're going to go to hell if
you cannot get out of this. And so he probably
went through hell finding out, you know, coming
to terms with who he was. And at some point,
I don't know the magic moment, but there was a
time when he felt resolute and he was accepting
and could accept himself. And here's back to
our early religion. He realized who he was,
that child of God. And it was forever, you
know, God's. And he carried it something he
had carried within his life and nobody, nobody
could take it from him. And with that, may I quote
a scripture that he quoted with me at that time?
Absolutely. It was so, um,
something that was important to him. It had
helped him. And it's, it is Romans
8, 35, and then 37-39. It says, she'll separate
us from the love of Christ.
Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or
famine or nakedness or peril or sword.
Nay, and all these things, we are more than
conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers,
nor things present, nor things to come, nor
height, nor depth, nor any other creature
shall be able to separate us from the love of
God, which is in Christ Jesus. This is the
scripture he shared. He owned that. He believed
that. And I believe that is not singularly,
but that was important. A source of inspiration
for him that he carried with him. And he just
felt important enough to share it with me. And
so I was very fearful going on. I wasn't where he
was exactly, mainly because I had heard the
same things he had. And, um, but it was from
Don. I
loved him dearly. He was a sweetheart. I
listened to what he had to say and I adored him. So
he taught me. He taught me by the way he lived.
He taught me through his conviction. He taught
me through sharing with me where he had been or
he was, and that he wanted me, he was willing to
teach me, you know, and so he did. He kind of,
in essence, took me by the hand and showed me a world
that I was just not familiar with. I had never
gone into. So, um, he did tell our parents and
my parents agonized. They agonized over it, but
they too, God bless their hearts,
they started seeking out help. They went to the
ministers. Not helpful. They went to a psychologist
and they spoke with just other physicians,
other mental health or medical, mental health
professionals. And I believe it was a family
doctor that said, just love him. You know,
he's your son. Don't worry about dealing with
that. And, um, just, and I, in the simplest
form that message, I think that's what they
grasp, even though they may, I know they were still
struggling with that because of who they were,
where they had been, where they were, they were
still resolute in loving their son. And that
mother would say, I'm not going to sit on the
judge's seat. I'm just going to love it. And
they did. Don never felt unwelcome in their home.
And his partner, Michael, when he came along,
wonderful person, he, um, they were always
welcoming, always and never in dissension. Now
I do know they talked about it. Mother would
come to
me, sit on her porch, swing. Now I just don't
think they're criminals, you know? And I said,
no, they're not. They're not mom. I just don't
understand. You know, people may have feelings,
but he's, you know, he's our son. Well, that's
the way they dealt with that.
But, uh, other than that, there were no big
family other than, uh, there were no big family discussions
openly other than when Don came and told the
family he was coming out. We knew he was gay.
He was becoming more visible and, um, it was
difficult for certain people in the family,
very, very difficult in protesting. And so, uh,
but I do feel that some of those individuals feel
quite differently now that they've told me so.
You have a sister who came out around this time.
Judith did. Oh my goodness. It was an
interesting place at the baker house. Um, Don,
you know,
paves the way for Judy, Judith. And, uh, my
sister is an amazing person and lives with her
wife in, uh, Albuquerque. And, um, Judy and I
were, uh, I always enjoyed, we enjoyed each
other a lot
growing up and she and I marched in a gay pride
parade in Dallas. I was with the PFLAG group and
she marched right beside me. Just kind of
affirming. I just love that. And, um, so Judy
is, um,
you know, as a really good, she's made a good
life for herself and she was a physician's assistant
and she retired early and she and Denise
plotted on in their plan for life and
they've done very well. So, uh, so yeah, she
came out, uh, she did have some problems at one point
and, um, you get, she got real depressed and,
uh, a time, but she, maybe Don helped her with that
and I hope that that's the case, but she did
just fine. She did fine, has created an amazing life.
So, uh, have lots of contact with her as much
as you can with that distance in Albuquerque,
great place to visit. So I hope to see her
Thanksgiving. I'm not sure. So, um, she was a great
aunt too. So, um, so yes, Judy came out. So our
parents had a lot of, uh, a lot, you know, this is
Bam, Bam, a lot to deal with. And I've enjoyed
saying that, that paved the way for me,
you know, to tell them, uh, that I was going to
marry a Jewish guy and convert to Judaism.
It's like, piece of cake. It was like, what's
this? No problem. And so, uh, thank you, Don.
So, uh, it really, uh, but I chose, it's a
reflection of their reason. It speaks to who
they are and the sense is how they dealt. They
didn't go off, you know, just owning. That was
just not part of their makeup to do that. They
were always loving and accepting of their kids,
every single one. Never any preference to a
fault. I should be famous. No.
Well, you know, a lot of the research that I've
done about Don, uh, I get a really good sense of
who he was as a public person, but I wonder if
maybe you could talk a little bit about what he
was like as a private person, as someone not
necessarily in the public eye. What was he like?
Don was, I loved him. He was amazing. A very
good big brother. And, um, really what I say,
he kind of guided me into the, into an
understanding of homosexuality and the gay
world. He introduced me to the Dallas scene and
took me to a gay bar. I was telling him,
you know, as I say, I divorced my husband and
we were, I was just expressing my frustration at
just not finding any of the right people. And
I'm just, and he said, well, let me take you
out for a night of fun and you won't have to
worry about anybody pulling you. And so he took
me to
this, maybe the Roundup. I'm trying to remember.
I'm sure it was. It was his favorite bar, right?
Okay. And, uh, but the surprise to me, I was
just at risk of sounding patronizing. I said,
this is a good looking bar. Here it is. Very
good. Beautiful. Then dancing grandly around
the floor.
But I started seeing people that we knew that I
didn't know were gay. And so it was like the
world, the door is opening up to, there's just
a bigger world, not a different world, a bigger world.
So, um, but as a family member, brother is, he
was always teaching us something,
wanting to share with us what he knew. If it
was about his travels, um, you know,
any, anything that he had learned, he was so
good with my children. And, um, when we would
go to his
house, he would have an itinerary for us. He
wanted whatever we did to have significance,
to be meaningful. And on one trip, um, I've
spoken to this before, and I think in
maybe the outrageous or that on a trip to new
England with two of our children,
he, at the end of, of doing this exciting day
of all the things he had outlined for us,
he had printed up a piece of paper and gave it
to each of my children. And, but to me,
the surprise was how anxiously or how they
looked forward to participating in what he was doing.
He asked them, what did you see today? What was
your favorite thing? What did you learn? And
they're down there on his table, writing out
their response. You do this. So, but he wanted
them to retain something. You know, Boston was
an amazing town. That's where so much of our
American history is. So he made it when there
was a family gathering, Thanksgiving, Christmas,
sometimes he would come with a printed program
for us just to give each of us parts. He would
give his nephews a poem or, and ask them if it
was okay, I'm going to ask you if you'd like,
would you like to read this passage? And we're
like, heck yes. You know, we've always just,
Christmas, just gone in and, and just had this
big meal and just mayhem,
ripping out presents. And, you know, we watch
football and go home. And, but he
gave it some more, a different level of
significance, whatever he did. And I loved
that. And I think we all did. It was like, this
is something we haven't done, you know, let's do
this. So he would, we would have music that,
that he would have printed out specific things. Our
father would have a scripture reading. And, you
know, one of the things I appreciate so much,
you know, I converted to Judaism with these
family gatherings and primarily Christmas
gathering, but
it was a big family gathering. He would have
something about Hanukkah for our children,
and he would let our children sing Hanukkah
song, you know, or some passage about Hanukkah,
the Hanukkah story. So here's Don pulling
people together. So he did that with his family,
as he did out in public. You know, how can we
bring people into a deeper understanding of this
and celebrate this? So Don did that. He had a
relationship with cousins, aunts, uncles.
When he was away in college, he started
reaching out to neighborhood kids,
people, and he got, I know because he got
responses, and I have those responses,
but our aunts, he started writing,
communicating with their aunts. These aunts, I didn't,
they were writing to him regularly. Whenever he
would write, they would respond. So he had his
aunts, his uncles, his cousins, neighbors. Don
was someone that just connected with people,
and it was such a joy to be around. It was so,
you just, he was a person that, in a room,
he wasn't an overpowering presence, but he was
fun. He was fun, had this love, and,
but he was sincere, almost a softness
sometimes, but that was listening. He would
really listen.
So he felt important, and so I was proud that
he took up the activism. I mean, I had, was
proud for
him, but I just kind of wish somebody else's
brother had done it because it was scary,
but what he did was so brave, and I think we
all felt that sense of pride. It was fear that cried
for him. Yeah, I mean, could you talk about the
case a little bit? What was it like for him to
go through that? Well, he was real busy with
it, and he kept in contact with our parents,
was working full-time job, and we were always
updated, and I remember, I think, being with
him that morning of that I attended one of the
days of the hearings, and I remember him prepping
for that, and he was where there was a PR
person working with him straightening his tie, getting
him ready. There was, in some ways, a
subduedness about Don. I think it was the
impact of what he
was doing, and it was just a little different
aura there, but I do remember going to that day,
that hearing, and being in that foyer with all
the media, light flashing, and going with him.
Up to the courtroom, I do remember that day
that that was the day Dr. Grixen was there,
and Don had said ahead of time to us that he
really didn't think that he was a strong witness,
that Dr. Grixen, you know, Dr. Death, that he
was a strong witness, and he was so right.
It was just amazing. It's as though Wade, I
really don't think he was serious about this case,
because that was his biggest witness, I believe.
It was Dr. Grixen. I remember, and then talk in
the essence of this, the effect of, in his
testimony, he was asked by Jim Barber, I remember
this, did you ever do any follow-up studies
with, you know, for these claims about how
homosexuality is bad? He was saying so many
negative things about homosexuality, and Dr.
Grixen said, yes, yes, and he said, well, what
was it? He said, well, correspondence Christmas cards.
He couldn't cite any studies on that, and
that's just what I recall about that. I
remember seeing
Judge Buckmeyer's son in there, John Paul, in
there, and in that they dressed, I think he was
in his blazer and khaki pants, but it was just
hard, in a sense, you know, it was like I was
afraid to give eye contact with somebody when I
heard Dr. Grixen's comments, because it was
this kind of a humorous moment, in an otherwise
serious atmosphere. Yeah, it just sort of gave
the sense that the state, and certainly Henry
Wade, just, they weren't putting their all into
defending his law. They weren't, and I think
they saw where things were going in the
community, in the country,
so he wasn't, he wasn't, and that was, I
remember hearing that, that from Don, so I'm
sure he was
just engulfed and preoccupied with that, but he
was always updating. I was supposed to, my sister
Judith, I was talking with her yesterday to
send Judy, but she attended all three days of that,
and I believe she was present when the verdict
came down. I was not there at that time,
but she was there, and I went around to clubs
and was celebrating when the Buckmeyer's,
when Buckmeyer's decision came down, which was
an impressive decision, if you read that.
Yeah, and I'm sure Don was elated. Oh my
goodness, oh my goodness, he was. Well, he had
labored for
so long. He, he had worked, so this, it wasn't,
I want to say all-consuming, in a sense, it was
a labor of
love. You know, he was on a mission, and so he
wanted, he saw this as his personal mission. I
think once
he was asked to do it, he, yeah, I can do this,
this, I'll do this, so there was no going back,
no changing his
mind, so he was very, very engulfed in all that
surrounded that at that time, so beyond that,
time, I'm afraid, has taken away a lot of, of,
of the events and all that. I do remember
the tension, in a sense, that we, it's like we
didn't talk about the fear that much, but we were
all afraid for him, but it was a mixture of
fear and pride. We knew what he was doing was
so brave,
so he would visit my parents during this time,
so he wanted to involve them at what,
excuse me, whatever was going on. He didn't
want them to be any surprises. He knew what
he was up against, you know, there were dangers
in this, so, but he wanted to keep them abreast
of everything. He did, he did do that. Do you
remember what it was like for him to have that
Fifth Circuit appellate court overturn
Buckmeyer's decision? It was, it was
devastating in a sense.
I'm not saying he felt part or anything, but it
was just all these years of efforts, and there was
hope, actually, that things were about to
really change, you know, the laws would, you
know, for
anti-discrimination laws were actually going to
be, so it was, it was a tough one. I know it was,
and, but it just, I don't know, in a sense,
regardless, in some ways being anticlimactic,
you know, it's, it's over, a decision's made.
So, you know, he was here for a while, and, and I
saw so many newspaper articles about where to
from here, essence of it,
and one of them is saying in that, that Dallas
Life magazine from the morning news, it says,
I'm ready to work behind the scenes now, and he
did. He didn't stop, though. He went on wherever
he moved, not in the same role as, you know,
lawsuits, but he would help to affect change.
He went up to Connecticut. I may be jumping
ahead here, but Don and Mike, you know, he met Mike,
his life partner throughout his, you know, his
cancer and everything, but Mike was an amazing
person, and they were so well-matched, I think,
and they went on to Connecticut and just dove
right into that Stafford Springs community.
They became active in the church, number one,
and Don was at some point asked to be, by a gay
and lesbian coalition, to be on a committee to,
they were trying to get an anti-discrimination
law in message, in Connecticut, and they asked
Don, in prepping for this, asked Don if he
would head up a task force to work on the
clergy and
the religious community, and Don did. He got
letters. He got, you know, information written
by clergy, and they even had the archbishop
giving a note that he believes that gays were
born this way, so it was a big step, and that
law passed, and you consider the New England community
probably largely Catholic, and that they were
able to do this, so Don was still busy, and I can
change. In the church, they were involved in
the church plays, liturgical music, and Don was also
asked to help with a task force within their
Parish to study homosexuality and religion,
so he plods on, you know, he plods on, so it's
just a part of who he was, you know, it was just
a part of his being was, I am gay, and I accept
myself, and I would like that others can know
what I know, you know, that we're all children
of God, so he just brought so much life and
vibrancy. He and Mike, when they arrived at
Maple Street, they started
knowing their neighbors. There was an elder
lady down the street. There was Joe and Darlene across
the street, and Don announced in his little
newsletter, the Maple Street Gazette, that we would
get periodically about their, Joe and Darlene's
grandchildren being born, and he said he thinks
that word got out in the community that the
gays had the best Halloween candy, so they had droves
of kids that came up to their house, but he
said, whatever the reason, we enjoyed that, so
you know, these newsletters were amazing. They
kept us abreast of what Don and Mike were doing,
the kind of their involvement, you know, about
friends and family that had visited them, you just
hope you made the list and made the cut, so
they're really interesting. I'd be happy to
share the
weather, but they're a chock-full front and
back of a single sheet of their activities,
their plans,
where they've been, their committees they're
on, and Michael's studies, and he got a job teaching
at a Albertus Magnus, their area, so. Well, Don
seems like a born educator to me. There you go,
very good. And he had been a teacher, right?
That was the essence of Don. He was an educator,
and his very essence of this guy was that he
loved to teach, and he liked to learn,
and then he wanted to share with people what he
learned. He thought that so much could
be changed in the world if people would just
listen and learn, and he thought his role was
in presenting this, this, what he knows to
people. Let's get together, let's talk about this,
so. And at the same time, he wasn't talking, he
would listen, too, so that's, I think, how change
does come about, you know? Marching is
important, protesting, but people will hear
more when they're
being, when they're being listened to, I think.
So that's what he did, and they moved on up to
Boston. He worked with VINFIN, which is a
nonprofit organization that oversaw the mental
health needs in Boston, and so he worked, he
was in the training and development department there,
and he created programs about diversity. He got
a citation or a letter of appreciation from
the House of Representatives in Massachusetts
for writing the first Black history program at
VINFIN. So, and VINFIN itself would cite him,
studies, I'm sorry, programs that he developed.
So he, to his core, he was a teacher. He taught
anybody, but it was like fun,
you know? He just wanted to be a part, be
around him, so.
Yeah. Are you comfortable talking about the end
of his life? What was the end of his life?
Yeah, I'll tell you what I know. Okay.
Remember, and this is in one of those gazette
publications that Don and Mike, in 1993,
sent out to everyone, their Texas friends,
family, whoever else, and said, you know,
that Don had been diagnosed, I think officially
in January of 93. And again, the prayer started,
the prayer request. Diagnosed with what?
Bladder cancer. He had bladder cancer, and he
was treated, and initially,
they thought that he was treated successfully.
He had surgery and a chemical instilled
that was in the bladder that was supposed to
help, and there was hope. He had it,
I think, for seven years, the cancer. He
battled cancer for seven years.
But it just slowly metastasized. It went to his
kidneys, more treatments, had a kidney removed,
went to his lungs, had a lung removed, and then
metastasized to his brain. But throughout that,
throughout that, he continued living, working
for as long as he could, up until the last few months,
probably last six months of his life. He was
enrolled in Harvard. He was going to Harvard
Divinity School, and he was working on a paper
about women in the early church. Okay. So,
the learning never stopped for him. He just was
like a sponge. He always felt there was
something else he could learn and then share,
that there was some good to that, a purpose for
that. So, my parents and I went up to Boston
for one of the surgeries. I remember that snow.
All the layers of snow and ice there. It was
different for this Texas girl to see that,
but being with Don during his surgery and being
there for a day or two, Michael, bless his heart,
was so kind to us and accommodating. My sister
Judy and I went up in October
prior to his death in December. We were
thinking that we were going to help rehab Don a
little bit.
Michael was keeping us up on things. Don had
fallen and re-injured some of his surgery. So,
Judy and I went, and we had just a ray of hope
that we might be able to work with him some.
But when we were there, this was close to the
end of, close to Halloween, close to the end of
October, this was going to happen. He was gone.
It was hard. He was having a difficult time.
In his brain, he had had surgery on his brain,
and it was hard for him. We were there. We would
do things. Such a nice time. John and I could
establish relationships. They had some neighbors
across the hall from them that allowed Judy and
I to stay in their apartment there in Boston.
So, we were right beside Don during this visit.
How kind is that? You know, people are so generous.
They weren't there, and so they let us use it
because they just loved Don and Mike.
So, it hit us in October, and in December, he
left. December 1st was when he passed away.
And I remember getting my mother and father,
and I were about to go to Boston that morning
because we knew Don was slipping away quickly.
And Michael called us. We were on our way to the
airport. Actually, I got the message before I
left the airport, but my parents were already
en route to the airport from their farm. I was
going to meet them there. So, I met them there
and shared with them what Michael had said. So,
we just went up to the clerk and, you know,
canceled our flights. So, they had a service
there in Boston, and they came to Dallas and
had a service
at St. Bernard's Catholic Church in Dallas, and
we had so many people speak. It was a real
meaningful service, but you know what one of
the reasons it was? Because Don wrote out his service
beforehand. He said he knew, excuse me, he knew
he was going. And he had some of this organized and
began talking about it on that last visit with
Judy. Now, Judy, would you be the one to speak?
And Judy didn't feel real comfortable. She was
as dedicated to her brother as anybody. So, he said,
Margaret, would you speak as a family member?
Yes. And so, we had designated different people,
Vivian and Louis, Vivian, I'm sorry, Louise
Young, and Dr. Harriet Earhart, who had always
been a stalwart supporter of the gay community.
And she tried to affect change, too. She was an
amazing person. So, we heard her, and he asked
my son to read a Hebrew scripture there. And
it's so
Don bringing people together. And so, he's the
one that just held the bouquet. You know, he brought
us all together. And so, I had that service,
and it was meaningful. And so, it was done in true
Don fashion, and Mike was one that implemented
it, of course. So, he went out as he wanted.
I've always thought it was especially tragic
that Don died just three years before the
Supreme Court ruled in Lawrenceville, Texas,
striking down the Texas Sodomy law.
Do you think Don had a sense that he was an
important part of that story and that that
result was coming? I don't remember a distinct
conversation, but yes, I know he had
the understanding or realization that what he
had would be built upon. Oh, definitely. And he knew
what he did was important. It was not in vain.
So, yes, he did know. It was in the future. It
didn't happen with him. God, I wish he could
have seen that. But he was distinctly a part of that.
And I appreciate what you have done to shine
light on that part. How wonderful that you did that,
keeping alive the memories with the efforts
that were laid before, because it just doesn't happen
out of blue. There were building blocks that
were placed, and Don was one of those. And I'm happy
he was. Yes, I know he realized that. And it
was just no stopping him, really. You know,
the sign of what you were just saying, I think,
is that he just kept on. He was just plodding
forward, going to affect change, work in the
church, work in the community, work with family,
friends. And so his mission in life was just,
he just pursued that mission till his end days.
How should we remember Don? How do you think we
should remember Don?
I feel, excuse me for reading it. Oh, sure. Go ahead.
It's so brief, but every time I went to rewrite
it or looked at it, I would want to rewrite it,
because it was never adequate. It's a
monumental task for me to try and summarize his
life. It's
like, oh my gosh, I can't leave this out. I
can't do that. So just give a little brief,
this is the essence of Don here. I just have to
say before you say,
I had 120 pages and two chapters about him in
my book that they made me cut down to one chapter.
So I feel your pain here. It's hard to- Oh,
bless your heart. Oh my gosh. Well, you see,
I love that. I think first and foremost, he was
a beloved family member. He honored his
father and mother. He was an amazing brother
and a doting uncle. He was an educator to his core,
who sought to create understanding through
education. Through sharing his education,
he hoped to impart information and wisdom to
help dispel the myths that perpetuate
bias and prejudice. He had and still has a
positive influence on others by having lived
an exemplary life that reflected his own values
of family, love of his country,
and an undeniable belief that he was a loved
and cherished child of God. He would want
others to
claim that same worthiness for themselves and
to know that we all have value and purpose.
That's great. Yeah, I think that's great.
So it's brought out so many times in your talk,
he was just an educator to his core,
but how lucky are we that we were the
recipients of that knowledge and all that
effort and energy,
and kindness, and sweetness, and love of Don. I
am so appreciative that I had this time to share.
It's something that I never feel that I can
adequately express, but I'm grateful for the
opportunity to do it. Thank you. Well, we
really appreciate having your voice in this podcast.
Hope you can get something from it. Oh, I think
we definitely can. Sarah,
is there anything else you think we should ask
Maggie? Is there anything we didn't talk about
you think we should? Well, oh, okay. The second
part of that was, you know, there was an important
part back in his time in Dallas, and I believe
it was during the legal times, but you know,
in his effort to educate people, he was part of
a group, I think Steve Wilkins was part of that too,
to have a seminar on homosexuality in the
church, and he had noted theologians come in,
and mental health professionals, and Herod
Erhard was at that, so he wanted, he would give
an opportunity for the clergy, for religious
groups, for individuals to come and explore
these issues, and so that was such a big thing.
I've still got all the brochures from those
too, but I remember him being involved in that.
I want to say Juanita Craft, a Black activist
in Dallas, she was there at that. It was just
so, she's an iconic figure, and I was like,
so honored to meet her, and to see her there at
that, and because of that, those connections with
the universities, educators, one of them, Dr.
David Switzer, who was in SMU's School of Theology,
he also happened to be a chaplain at a mental
psychiatric hospital I worked at, but he invited
me and Don, Mom, Dad, to come and talk to his
class about how families deal with this, and so
we were there, and I think my mother started
crying, and Don said, we're a family of criers,
you know, we all just start wiping our tears,
it was such an emotional thing, but those were
some things that were going on at that time as
well, so. I think Norman Pittenger was the speaker.
Yes, yes, he was. So Don had sought this all
out, you know, did he just do this in his sleep?
I think that, you know, it was just this
ongoing effort. Yeah, he seemed to really take
in this
evangelical fervor of his religious upbringing,
and sort of became an evangelist for educating
people about gay and lesbian people. You just
pegged him, you just hit it as an L on the head,
that's exactly who he was, and what he was
doing. It was what he grew up with was part of
his fiber
throughout his life, you know, the belief, the
staunch belief that, you know, faith, and I'm
God's creation, and God loves me, and he loves
all of us, and this is what he wants us to know.
And if you don't know it, then I hope I can
teach it to you. So, you know, that would be my message
to people too, is God just realized your value
and your place in the universe, and if you're
not finding it where you're at, seek it out. If
you're not seeing it where you are, seek it out.
You know, you may have to choose your family
and, you know, choose your friends. There are
places that people can go when you can feel
acceptance. It just breaks my heart to think
that sometimes it's still such a contentious
issue. I wish it weren't, I wish it were a non-issue,
just a non-issue. So, it's like, you know,
we're not, you know, I just believe we're all,
we're all variations of God's original creation.
You know, it's not like we need to tolerate.
There's a sticking point with me where
tolerate, that it implies there may be
something undesirable
there, like a bad cold, you tolerate, or your
brother-in-law, you know, you tolerate. But it's
just, we all are, you know, we're just part of
this group. But, you know, God did, you know,
God created Adam and Eve, you know, that's one
of the little cliches. Well, He didn't say you
wouldn't have gay children. And God didn't say
if you would have a child that was athletic,
or a child who was artistic, or a child who was
musical, or a child who was an introvert,
or extrovert, or have a nose that turned up or
down, we're just all variations of that.
And by virtue of that, we're just all creations
and need to live our life as freely as we can
without oppression. Yeah, I think Don got us
closer to that. Thank you. I do so. I do too.
It was amazing. He was just a life force in a
sense. You know, he wasn't a person that
would suck the air out of a room, but he had an
energy, an energy and exuberance
that was so pleasant to be around. Loved it. I
think everyone will tell you the same thing.
Well, thank you so much for your time, Maggie.
This was really great. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Dr. Phelps. I'm so happy I could be
a part of it. Thank you for inviting me.