ACUTV proudly presents
On Campus with your host, ACU
Vice President and dean of campus life,
Dr. Gary McCaleb.
Here's Gary.
On campus today,
we are pleased to welcome a very special
guest to our program, Dr. Jabor
al-Atrash from the country
of Syria.
Dr. al-Atrash has served in the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs for his country and a
number of different positions.
He has also served as minister and
ambassador from the embassy
of Syria in Belgrade, Yugoslavia,
Caracas, Venezuela and
Beijing, China, among other places.
He also served as the Syrian
representative of the Syrian government
to the United Nations General Assembly's
four different times.
It's an honor to have you with us today,
Dr. Olajide.
We look forward to visiting with you
about a number of issues, because
the things that are going on in the
Middle East are of so much
importance to all of us all over the
world.
And you have had an opportunity
to experience a great deal of
that and a very firsthand
and personal way.
Could you explain to us from your
perspective what
the main issues seem to be at
the present time in the
Middle East?
Yes, well, actually,
in the Middle East, there is a lot
of problems, really.
It is very sad to say that
the region, the area of the Middle East
is the area which comes into the
news every day
with killing and with so many
problems.
Our main issue, our main
problem in the Middle East started
in 1948
with the creation, the abolishment
of the state of Israel.
And from that time till now,
the war is
continuous between
the Arab states and Egypt,
40 years.
Already we had five wars
and still we are carrying
on with that. That is our main issue.
The second war,
which is very unfortunate,
is the Iraq Iran war.
Iraq is an Arab country
and Iran is a Muslim and a friendly
country.
And this war is very much
sorry. We feel sorry about
it because both countries are
good neighbors.
They had been for a long time together
and all of a sudden this happened,
which was very unfortunate.
And the Arab states are actually
they are not all of them
agreeing about this for
Syria, Libya
and South Yemen
that are against this
war and against Iraq.
And they are still with
the regime of Khomeini
because they think that this
war is absolutely unjust.
It shouldn't take place.
Other Arab states, they are with
Iraq because that is the kind
of solidarity among Arab states.
We have Jordan, for example, we
have Saudi Arabia and
we have many other countries with
Iraq.
But Syria is absolutely
adamant about its position
against Iraq because Iraq
had started this war with Iran and
we don't like it.
It's a problem.
Is the civil war in
Lebanon.
It is also carrying on
and it is an awful war.
We have around twenty five factions
in Lebanon, all of them.
They were together for the whole
four centuries together.
And also they are killing each other,
all of them. They are against one
another, Christians, Shiite
Muslims, Shi'ite Muslims who need
and Palestinians, they are
against each other and killing
for no reason, no serious religion,
really.
And it is for the last 15.
Yes.
15 years that this war is
carrying on and we cannot
come to put an end to it
also.
We have many other problems in
the Middle East.
We have the occupation of
Afghanistan, which also
a big problem for the whole Middle East,
and we like it to be settled, but
we can't do anything.
Now, these are the main problems.
There are many others.
But the main problems with that
problem now, you have been involved, of
course, as a governmental representative
of the country of Syria.
What particular role has
do you believe your country has been
playing or needs to play in
addressing these problems?
Well, as a matter of
fact, Syria can
play the main role.
Syria is involved in
every one of these problems,
not only because it's an Arab state,
but also because Syria has a
position key in the whole region.
Now, the main problem of ours
is the conflict, Arab-Israeli
conflict.
Syria is very much involved
in this problem because
Palestine has been always considered
as part of Syria
and Palestinians are brothers,
Arab brothers.
And when Palestine was
occupied, we.
You.
That the next step
for the Israeli expansionism
is Syria, and
already we had five wars
with Israel and during
two of these wars in nineteen
seventy three and before 1967,
Israel occupied part
of the Syrian territory.
They occupied Kuneitra and the region
of Kuneitra.
It is in the south
west of Syria.
And now they are occupying a very
important part of Syria,
which are the Golan Heights.
So we are very much involved in
this problem.
And Syria can't get out
of this as long
as Israel doesn't
accept the Palestinians
to give them their rights
and to accept them, to give them
the right for self-determination.
Syria would never accept
to have peace in the region.
We are always going to
make war against Israel
as long as Israel doesn't accept
the Palestinians second.
In Syria, we have the
chance to have a very stable
regime.
And we have President Hafez
al-Assad, who was
in power ruling Syria
for the last
17 years and the
whole of the country obeys
him and we believe in his capacity.
We believe in him as a great
statesman.
And this gives to Syria
a very primary role
to do something in the country,
because all the other states, none
of them could really do something to
settle the problem.
Third, we see the problem
of Lebanon, which is a very,
very sad one.
Lebanon has a civil
war between the factions,
the different factions.
And this war shouldn't be
that Syria was called
by the Arab states and by the
big powers to play its
role, to settle the question.
And now we have around 30000
thousand troops, Syrian troops
in Lebanon trying to
settle and trying to separate the
fight fighters.
And we have to a
certain point, we have
succeeded to put really and
to have some stability in the country.
So all these things
can put Syria in a good
place to play
a vital role to settle
the problems of the Middle East.
And Syria also has
a good army.
We are well equipped and
we are ready.
And I think that with Iraq
and with Egypt, we were the strongest
among the Arab states and Syria
with this army also.
It can do something in
the region and find
a way to settle the problems
of the Middle East.
In view of that, um, do
you believe the other countries,
Israel, Lebanon,
Iran, Iraq, are
willing to allow Syria
to take a position of leadership
and trying to resolve some
of the problems or the other countries
willing to let Syria do that?
Well, I think
that is something which is known
all over that
our problems in the Middle East,
they are not due
to us or to our ambitions
or we are unfortunately,
we are in the hands of the two
superpowers.
And so none
of the countries in the
region can do anything
if the superpowers, both
of them, they don't accept
and they don't really believe
in settling the problems of the Middle
East. So we are in their hands.
Some, for example, was told
said to me and I had that,
that our gods
actually they are the two superpowers.
They are United States and Soviet
Union. And as a matter of fact,
the arms that
we have in Syria are
100 percent from
the Soviet Union.
And all the strength
of Israel comes from the
United States.
The United States is unfortunately,
I don't discuss the matter because it
is their problem.
They have their policy in the whole
region.
They are adopting Israel
as a state of the United
States. They are giving them
financial help
gratis.
They are giving them all kinds
of weapons and very
sophisticated ones.
In 1973, for example,
they were in a way
involving themselves, the
the Americans in the war,
to stop the Arabs,
to kick out Israel
and to finish Israel.
So our problems are not ours.
And I am sure that none
of the countries of the Middle
East alone, nor the
the Soviet Union alone, nor
the United States can put
an end to the war.
And the real solution is
first that Israel
should accept.
To have to settle
the matter and to establish
peace in the right way,
peace on justice and to accept
the Palestinian people
to go back or to give them any kind
of self-determination, and
second, to cooperate
with the Arab states and
under the leadership of both
superpowers, if all
these countries and powers,
they don't get together with
a real decision and sincere
one to put an end to
the war and the troubles
will carry on in the region.
You are a representative in the United
Nations meetings in four different
times, the twenty second, the twenty
fourth, twenty fifth and twenty six
sessions.
And so you had an opportunity to see,
uh, that, uh, United Nations,
uh, uh, attempt at
countries representatives coming together
and resolving.
How did you feel about what was able
to be accomplished? Did you feel that
that served a very influential
purpose for those people to come
together?
Well, I have the impression
for the four times I've been
in the United Nations
that the United Nations can't really
do anything if the two superpowers,
they don't agree on it.
They are doing on other problems,
great things.
For example, in economic
and health problems.
They are doing great things,
great accomplishments.
But as far as politics
is concerned, in the political
field, they are very much,
uh, incompetent
to do anything unless the
two superpowers for
their own ambitions and
when they revalidate.
Comes to an end when they settle
their problems among themselves,
then the solution
may be.
But whatever the for
example, we have the nonaligned
countries, we have the Muslim countries.
We have the secretary
general, secretary of the United Nations.
They are trying to do something.
But if the Bostitch
super powers, they don't accept, agree
on a solution, we shall never have a
solution.
And we are very hopeful.
I saw yesterday with great joy
myself, I am no more ambassador.
I am just a citizen of Syria
like any other.
I was very glad to see
the first secretary of the Communist
Party coming here,
Gorbachev, and I
am very hopeful that they may get
really some agreement.
Both.
Uh, the president of the
United States and the first
secretary of the Soviet Union,
if they come to settle their own
rivalry, their own antagonism,
then we are hopeful to have
some solution.
But as long as I am Frank,
I told you again that I am no
more a representative
of my country. I am not talking in
the name of Syria.
I have no power for that.
But I am sure that if
they settle their problems,
if the agreements we are hopeful
to see signed today, tomorrow,
during these two days, then
we are hopeful to have our problems.
But as far as there is rivalry
between them, the rivalry
will be fought not only
in Europe, not only in
Soviet Union or any other,
but especially in the Middle East,
because the Middle East is very important
for both of them.
The Middle East, the oil in the
Middle East. So much important
is a factor very much
useful to the, uh,
to Europe, very
much, very much useful to Japan
and very much to everybody.
It's very important.
And in the Middle East,
in the Gulf area, the main
fortune, the main resources are
petroleum. They are the richest in
the in the whole world.
And both big powers,
they are interested to, in
a way, to say a word about
this and to have the word to say
about the problem of Middle East.
So if they don't
settle their problems among themselves,
we shall have problems always and no
hope to do anything.
We need to pause and take a break for
just a minute and we'll come back and
visit about some other matters.
We're visiting today with Dr. Jaber
al-Atrash.
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It's Radio Worth every minute.
We're back on campus and continuing to
visit with Dr. Jabor al-Atrash,
former ambassador of Syria.
You have had the opportunity to
observe leadership
and men and women in positions
of leadership in countries all over
the world. I would be interested in and
asking you about two areas.
First, let's talk about
some of the leaders of the past that you
have observed, and then we'll talk
in a few minutes, perhaps about some of
the present day leaders that
are. But for example, during
the period of time that you were
ambassador to China, you were there
for four years.
Is that correct?
And during that time, you had an
opportunity to
observe some. Would you speak a little
bit about that and tell us your
observations of some of the leaders
when.
When I was appointed as ambassador
to China by
my president, half of that, I said
he told me that.
He really thinks that China
is a country for the future.
China has one billion
of population,
which is absolutely unique
and it has a
an area equal to the United
States, nine million and something
square kilometers.
So he told me to
go there and to take the opportunity
to study the country
and the in the past and
in the actuality, that was
in 1972
and to give a report,
a real report to Syria, because I
would like to avail himself
of the great experience
of the communist regime in
China, to avail himself
in Syria.
I went there and effectively, I
was extremely happy.
I learned a lot.
Because the first thing
is the stability
of the regime.
One billion people,
it is something amazing.
One cannot believe it
how they all of them
under strict control.
That is not one
of the one billion who can move.
Against the government,
everything was under control
and how I tried
to find out where
the the.
The party was so
well organized.
The party was everywhere
and there were communes
and its commune is conducted,
led by some responsible
of the party.
And the, uh,
at the time, Mao Tse tung
was alive still and
Mao Tse tung was very
much, very much respected
in a way, sort of admiration
for him because you don't
feel sorry.
Mao Tse tung, when he
tried to liberate his country
from the regime of Chiang Kai-Shek,
he had with
around two thousand
or two hundred thousand,
uh, people to go
and to make war for
one year.
That was called the long March,
one year all over China.
And he had with him to lie.
And you had with him power
the he was
the minister of
defense. And you could realize
that the
Chinese were so happy
to be liberated from Chiang Kai-Shek
because the Chinese were always
dominated.
And even the European
countries, as you have read
about, for example, uh, the
drug war and so on, they
were trying to keep
the whole of China under control and
to colonize it.
But with the regime
of Mao Tse tung,
the China was completely
liberated.
And when we were there,
I heard many times
like talking and he
was treating both superpowers,
the United States and
the Soviet Union, as imperialist
powers, both of them
the United States.
It is called the Western imperialism,
the one nontraditional
one, imperialism and colonization.
And he was hundred
percent against the Soviet
Union because after
helping him, giving him
helping China to
be liberated from Chiang
Kai shek, who was also
Chiang Kai shek, as aided
and assisted by the United
Nations, the United States,
well, uh, the arms
in the hands of the Chinese were
Russian.
But after that, the Russians tried
to control the country and
to keep it under their regime,
submit it to them.
Of course, they couldn't accept that
they were too proud to accept
to go out of one domination,
under another domination.
And that's why they declared a kind
of war, but real
and total war against
the Soviet Union.
They didn't, of course, enter
into conflict, open conflict, but
all relations were almost
cut. They had embassies
in both countries in Moscow and
in Beijing, but
these embassies were only
forty four.
And when, for example, we
attended many times,
uh, parties in
the Hall of the People
and hundreds of
people were there,
for example, to a ceremony
because, you know, many to receive a king
or to receive the president of the
republic. And we were invited as
ambassadors and the friendly
countries.
And chewin lie to make
his speech, he was attacking
both the Soviet
Union and the United
States and calling them
in an open way and before
everybody, the imperialist
countries of the world and
the worst countries to rule
the world.
That was until 1972,
when President Nixon
could go there.
And thanks to Kissinger also
the visits he made that
and after that there were
there was recognition of
the regime
of the of the communists by
the United States.
And everything was arranged between both
the United States and the
China and.
All had has started
to change and the China
up to nineteen seventy
nineteen seventy four,
1974, exactly it
China started to change
it is policy
because they thought that they had this
authoritarian regime,
proletarian regime completely
in order everything just
to get rid of the
occupation and of
the coming of the imperialism.
But once everything settled,
they tried to open themselves,
not to the to the Soviet
Union, but to the west.
And they received one after another,
the president of France, the received
or the the prime minister
of Canada, the prime minister of
Australia and all
the and the prime minister of
Germany, the federal Germany.
And they started to open themselves.
And they have now
I have read about that.
It is long, but just I will come
to this point.
They have now started
to be openly and completely
a state of being completely
open. It is open to everybody.
And they started, for example,
I.
I saw.
And I this very much before I
came here, the wife of
the ambassador of China in
Damascus, they are good friends
of mine. I went there and I
saw the wife, uh,
dressed exactly like a
European or like a
Western woman.
While before that they
were always with this costume,
which was for men and
women at the same time.
And they were called the Mao Tse
Tung jacket.
But they have started completely to
change. Even they had
the make up.
And they had this beauty and
all this jewelry, everything
was change. And now the actual
regime is still more changed
and they have finished with
the old figures.
They said the all they have
done their job.
Now we thank them very much.
We shall push them aside and
young people will take power.
And all the regime actually
is a regime with young
people to rule the country.
And not only that, but just lately,
I read that they
have given their wives
some tickets through the
capital for one of
their rich, very rich, one
in Chinese, one
in China.
They gave back this money
to him and they allowed him to
get in touch with companies,
with American companies for
a starting great enterprises
and a great building and construction
in the in China.
So China.
To say you were just showing
that they have made
first they have come through
a very strict regime
under marketing and July,
and when they have finished, they have
established their freedom,
complete freedom.
Now, they have changed completely
and radically all their
policy.
They are now for opening
themselves to the West, to
everybody, to everybody,
and to go and to send
also delegation to send their
people to learn
outside what they want.
For example, in in
Japan, they were sending,
while I was there, thousands
of students to Japan
to learn the technology
of Japan and to come back
with a new technology and to
improve everything in China.
Dr. Charles, you have had so many
experiences and so many things
that would be interesting for us
to hear about. Unfortunately, we're
already out of time on this program, so
perhaps we can have opportunities to
visit again about some other
of your experiences, as well as your
observations in some other areas.
But thank you very much for being with us
today and be very pleased.
I thank you very much.
Thank you.
Good. And thank you for being with us
On Campus with Dr. Jobb al-Atrash.