Katherine: Teaching for a black school or a white school?
-: It was a black School.
And I also had a research interest
and I received my first grant when I was teaching
at Texas Southern University.
And the grant was to work with gifted kids.
And so, I continued
when I started teaching at Alabama A and M.
I became the director of their honors program.
And then I wrote for quite a few grants while there.
And sort of expanded my expertise.
And then when I retired from there,
I retired a little bit prematurely
because my wife was ill and I wanted to spend time with her.
And then my final teaching position was
at Jarvis Christian College for two years.
Working under Oswell Person,
the author of the book that you guys have.
And I also directed their honors program.
And I found a lot of consolation
and working with the kids who have high potential
and taking them as far as they thought they could go.
Katherine: And the program was called what?
I'm sorry.
The program, what was it called?
-: The honors program.
Katherine: The honors program?
Okay.
Honors program. -: Honors program yeah.
Katherine: Okay, okay.
And so, you taught in, at Jarvis for between what years?
-: 2007, I taught the academic year 2007
and the academic year, 2008.
Oswell invited me to come there and teach English.
And I told him, okay.
And I came there, he was the academic vice president there.
So, he started two weeks ahead of me.
And then I came down.
And then we both left at the same time, two years later.
And he won't admit it
but I think he took the job because he knew
that the president was retiring in a couple of years.
And he thought he was going to get the job.
And he never admitted that to me,
but I always teased him about it later.
And he didn't get the job.
And so, when I found out he didn't get the job
I was put in my resignation.
And he told me that he's going to be right behind me.
And we left at the same time.
But he's an amazing fellow.
And you guys have to talk to him.
And I gave, Mildred his phone number.
And I alerted him that you guys might call him.
Katherine: Had you met him before,
you worked with him at Jarvis?
-: He was my elementary school mate.
And my high school mate.
We were good friends, all of our lives.
We know one another's family.
He knows mine better than I know he is.
He has a photographic memory.
And I think I was telling somebody
that he can today recall every person
who was in our first grade class.
He remembers everything.
But we're good friends.
Matter of fact, he put my picture on the back of his book.
And I wrote the full word for his book.
He's a great guy.
Great person.
And so is his wife.
Somebody that everybody needs to get to know.
Katherine: So, right before the interview,
you told me that, you were not an activist,
that you were a pioneer.
Can you explain what it is you mean by that?
-: Well, I consider an activist,
a person who works on behalf of others.
My intent for enrolling in to Texas A and M
was a personal one.
I wanted to graduate in three years.
And I had no intention to deliberately integrate anything.
And A and M happened to be there.
And I happened to have that need.
And so when I went there, you know
I didn't want to be the center of attraction.
I wanted everybody to leave me alone.
And not that I was that aloof,
but I knew what I was doing and what Vernell was doing.
I knew this was groundbreaking.
I knew that at some point it would be,
it would make the headlines and all.
But, I just wanted to go
and take my summer courses and graduate in three years.
But I consider an activist to be the person
who would do that.
And at the same time, draw the community in,
or expand his or her activity into something else.
And I really didn't want to do that.
Another experience is, Mr. Charles Ferreri owned a couple
of other restaurants
and he had his sons manage those restaurants.
And one of them was the Triangle drive-in restaurant
which was close to A and M campus at the time.
And I wanted to work while I attended Texas A and M.
And Joe Ferreri knew me because I had worked for his dad.
And I went over and I asked him for a job waiting tables
so I could have spending money.
And he said, "Well man,"
he said, "I'll take that chance with you."
He said so what do you mean take a chance with me?
You already know me."
He said, "Yeah, but you're famous now."
And he said, "At the slightest sign of trouble, you know
I'm gonna get rid of you, don't you?"
I said, "Yeah, I know that."
But I actually brought him more business.
And because when people found out I was working there,
people would come and wanted to sit at my table.
And of course, if I talked to them,
I would spend more time with them.
And I wouldn't have time to wait
on more customers and actually lose money.
But, I had a great experience working that summer
for Joe Ferrari.
And made a lot of money and did well.
And he told me he came up and put his arm around me.
"Well you know you made me some money."
I said, "Well, give me a raise."
Of course he wouldn't do that.
But, good experiences.
Katherine: When you were at A and M,
did you notice any Latino students there?
Mexican-Americans, Mexican students?
-: You know,
I specifically didn't look at the girls very hard
because I knew all eyes were on me anyway.
And so, I didn't wanna create any undue attention.
And you know, girls would come up to me and chat and all
and I was polite.
But, you know,
several foreign students wanted to come home with me.
And so I took them to my mom's restaurant.
But if some girls had wanted to come home with me
I would have flatly turned them down.
Because I didn't wanna get in any trouble.
And I didn't wanna create a spectacle.
But, I don't know if there were any,
I do know that some lady named Menendez,
apparently attended early on at some point.
And I sent her an electronic transmission
with her name on it.
And I'm sure the Director Vice-president of Diversity
has her phone number at Texas A and M.
But, not, it's not sure about that.
And I don't know what kind of records Texas A and M kept.
And when I was puzzled as
to why nobody was talking
about 30 years later, talking about our enrollment.
And the article came out
after I called the editor of another article.
Then this article came out in 1990.
Which is a summary of my experience at Texas A and M.
And the fact that I was able to enroll there
without creating a social fuss.
And without having any problems.
But, according to the author of this article,
some history professor at Texas A and M,
couldn't find the information about
when African-American first enrolled at Texas A and M.
And that concerned me.
And I just think that's a story that has to be told
before we're too old to tell it.
Or before it's lost.
And the archives
Katherine: That was published in 1990?
-: This was published February 29, 1990, the Bryan Eagle.
Katherine: So from 1963 to 1990, nobody knew,
who had integrate at the school?
-: Nobody, nobody said anything,
nobody did anything.
And nobody appeared to have a record of what happened.
And then in 2001, when the exhibit and fulfillment
of a dream captured the efforts of African-American
to integrate Texas A and M.
And then it was public knowledge.
And you know, I failed to mention that my brother,
we have different fathers, but the same mother
integrated the local high school.
And the years, 1965, 1966.
Katherine: Here in Bryan?
-: Here in Bryan.
Yeah.
He was the first black to graduate
from the old Stephen F. Austin High School.
And he went on to the University of Texas.
And then he got his PhD
from University of Michigan, eventually.
But.
Katherine: Was he on the freedom of choice plan
or was that when total integration came about?
-: This was before total integration.
Total integration didn't come about, I believe until 1971.
And he went there,
the 1965 and 1966 year. -: Okay.
-: And
yeah.
This was before any other public school integration
had occurred, in Bryan.
And he is currently a teacher
in the Bryan Independent School District, teaches music.
Yeah.
Katherine: Well, before I get to my final question,
Dr. Moy, did you have any questions?
Dr. Moy: I do.
Did you join any organizations at A and M?
-: No.
Because, actually,
I kinda had a chip on my shoulder at A and M.
And I didn't,
remember I went only to get the summer courses.
And I didn't go there to embrace A and M.
And A and M really wasn't my school.
I mean they had told me they were not gonna admit me.
And even though I didn't know they were forced to admit me.
I just didn't like them very much.
And because I thought they didn't like me.
So and then typically in the summer
so you don't join anything anyway.
But I never felt a real part of A and M.
I didn't hate A and M.
But I was pretty much ambivalent.
And even if I were going in a regular semester,
well maybe I would've joined something then.
But I really didn't join anything.
Yeah.
And the second summer session,
several other black students
came in to Texas A and M.
Dr. Moy: Did you know them personally?
(indistinct)
-: Yeah, I knew,
I knew all of them.
I knew the first lady right next to me.
I knew her better than I knew the others.
But, I knew all of them.
I went to church with Beiser.
And she's related to one of the vice-presidents
who's there now at Texas A and M.
I don't remember the, direct relation.
And maybe to, I think she's also related to Mrs. Pervy
whom you have on your list to interview.
But.
Dr. Moy: You mentioned much earlier that
you didn't like the Aggies who came
to the drive-in restaurant.
You felt that-
-: They were vile.
And I tell you, it got to the point
where we just hated to go out and clean the parking lot.
But we knew that it had to be done.
And they didn't bother my brother Charles too much
because he was big muscular football player.
Didn't bother him too much.
And he wasn't skinny.
And he probably would've stopped them from bothering him.
But my brother James and myself,
they taunted us.
They, and probably if we had reacted
they would have done much more
but we just kept our mouth shut
and we didn't do any or say anything.
But, I saw none of this when I went to A and M.
And I was bracing to find some of that
because I remember just six or seven years earlier,
that's what I saw.
But, everybody was nice.
My only complaint was that they were too nice.
But, I had no problems at all.
Dr. Moy: May I ask one question about activism?
You mentioned that you had several conversations
with business owners
especially after the 1964 Civil Rights Act
about the need to bring down the whites only
and the color-
-: Yeah, well these were doctors.
And I was a pharmaceutical sales rep.
And I would go into Richmond, Rosenberg,
all those little towns.
And I became pretty good friends
with many of those doctors.
We would go out to eat and all.
And so very slowly I would ask them, you know
"Why do you still have that sign up?"
Well you know I just forgot to take it down.
I said, well, " You can take it down now."