Jasmine: School did you attend?
-: I attended, I can't remember the name
of the school in Houston, at first.
Then I attended Booker T. Washington
from fourth to eleventh.
And then I graduated from Jack Yates.
Jasmine: And then where'd you go after that?
-: To work,
until I went to law enforcement school for Texas A&M,
here in Conroe.
Jasmine: And so, I think when we talked about,
we were talking about certain places that you were,
black folks weren't
supposed to be at. -: Oh, yeah.
They had another cafe downtown called The Texan Cafe.
As a matter of fact, his auntie,
David Lee's auntie that just walked out of here,
his auntie was working there.
And a classmate of mine's mama worked at that store,
at that cafe.
They cooked good food.
You had to go to the backdoor there, as well.
And of course, at these other places
you couldn't drink out the water fountains.
Actually, I'll never forget.
It's a burger bar now.
That place has been there for years.
It used to be a dirty dog stand or something.
But I'll never forget one Halloween night.
And this girl named Patricia Teller,
we was out trick-or-treating.
Of course, they had a water fountain outside the store,
says "white only."
And so we went there trick-or-treating,
and Patricia went there to get some water.
And I distinctly remember saying,
"Patricia, girl you can't drink out that water fountain.
It says white only."
She said, "Water ain't got no color."
And she kept right on drinking.
Course, you know, being youngsters, you know,
it kind of scared us, but nobody said anything to it
and she didn't quit drinking.
So, that was about it.
Jasmine: Also, we've heard about some really,
I guess, heinous, racialized violence in Conroe back in,
I guess, the '40s.
There was the case of the guy being burned
on the courthouse. -: I've heard about that.
My friend, Jewel, that's deceased now,
I think that guy was some kin to her.
I had a book, a history on Conroe,
and this black attorney, Janice Baldwin,
I let her have my book to read it and she still got it.
And I want my book.
Girl, if you read that book
about some of these people our people worked for,
they was Klu Klux Klansmen and they were bad.
Jasmine: Yeah, yeah that's one thing...
-: The Cochrans and the Gentrys, and all of them, you know,
just reading that.
And Janice still has my book
and I would love to get that book back
(Jasmine laughing)
Jasmine: Well you called her out on the video.
(laughing)
We also heard things, I guess, about Cut and Shoot
being the place where black folks shouldn't go.
Did you hear stories about that?
-: Josh Fisher, the one that worked
for the Adult Probation Department,
he was married to Alice, who was teaching school.
She stay in April Sounds now and he's deceased.
He lived out there.
We got invited to a party out there one time.
We went, and boy we was looking when we was outside.
Cars passing by.
I said, "Boy, why did you move to Cut and Shoot?"
He said, "Oh, they don't bother me."
But I think one time somebody did burn a cross in his yard
and that's when they decided to move.
And then, my girlfriend who passed away,
her cousin used to drive school bus.
And she drove the school bus, dropping his kids off.
And when she drove down this road
to take this one child home,
somebody had a dummy hung, strung up on a rope.
Jasmine: What year was all this happening?
-: Oh gosh.
Jasmine: The cross burning and the dummy?
-: Josh, let me think back.
It had to be in the 70s, both of them.
I forgot which one of her cousins was driving the bus.
That had to be, like, in the '80s, I guess.
And she got off the bus
and she wouldn't even drive the bus back.
She called in and they had to come get her.
It shook her up so bad.
And she even quit driving the bus.
That did her in.
And those are only...
Oh, we had a lady that belonged to our church.
She came here from out of state.
She was a foster mother.
She had about seven kids.
She had her niece who had two adopted children.
And they bought this big, okay,
They were moving to a house
because whatever organization she was affiliated with
with these children, they would always look after them.
The kids got free dental.
They got free everything, whatever.
They was well-mannered and everything.
She was Miss Powell. She wasn't married.
She bought a house out in,
I guess going towards New Caney.
Ted Morgan, bless his heart, was alive
and he went out there.
Somebody burned a cross on her yard.
It was a big old two-story house.
Cause I had to go out there and interview her
because she was legally adopting these kids
out of my court, out of Judge Johnny Woods' court.
That was the first time I went out there to this house.
Her house was sitting on the road here.
But there was a road on the side that led to the back
where some white people stayed.
And she said that these people stopped at her house
and happened to see her,
wanted to know how she could afford a house
because it had a swimming pool and everything.
How could she afford a house like that, you being black?
She said, "The Lord has blessed me."
And she said, "And I left it at that."
And then things started happening.
So eventually, yes, she did move.
As a matter of fact,
she was looking for a bigger house in Conroe.
The whole church was trying to help her find a big place
for her and her huge family.
We couldn't find anything.
So she wound up moving to Houston, close.
And she had to rent two apartments.
So they had to divide the family
because everybody couldn't live in the same,
you know, apartment thing.
But eventually she did move back.
She moved back to Georgia,
but she's back in Houston now.
And the kids are all grown now and everything.
As a matter of fact, recently I was
at a Bible study the other night.
She showed me a picture of Bethany and her son.
Bethany's a sergeant in the service now.
So her kids turned out well.
Jasmine: So the cross-burning
at her property happened in what year would you say?
-: That's going to be in the '80s.
No, it's not.
It's going to be in, had,
I was out of school.
Yeah. That's going to be in the '80s.
I was a cop then.
Yeah. That's going to be the '80s out there.
Cause, you know, believe it or not,
they hide their colors real well.
You got a lot of prejudice people here,
and you still got some Klansmen here.
But you don't even know you're talking to them.
Jasmine: Yeah. I guess there's,
there is a Klan group that is based in Conroe.
-: I've been told that.
As a matter of fact I go to exercise
on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays.
And I gave up my Fridays for y'all, which was okay.
There's this one guy saying there's a group here.
But he won't tell you where they are.
But he says they got a guy that stands guard with a AKA.
And he'll look at you and say, "Well yes,"
but doesn't tell us.
He won't tell you where it's at.
He said, "I know where they are. They're here."
But he won't talk.
And we ask him, "Are you one of them?"
And he'll just look at you and laugh.
He stays out on 105, 2854 somewhere.
Jasmine: Yeah. Cause we've also heard
that certain people, black people who live
in different areas back in the day,
didn't want to stop in Conroe
because they heard things about Conroe.
-: I'm gonna tell what happened to me since moving out here.
When I got this house, my son approved.
Because my husband died in '99.
Okay. I had this big house over there.
Too big for me. Cost me a lot of money for upkeep and stuff.
I was having a lot of stuff fixed.
So when I told my son I wanted to sell the house,
him and my daughter said,
"Mom, that's the best thing you can do."
So when I got this house and I moved in,
I wanted to make friends with my neighbors.
Well this house next door to me over here was empty.
Hispanics moved in over there.
This white couple been over here.
Then there was a white couple living
across the street, over there, stories.
And then, well Mike, it's a black family
that moved across the street from me.
They still there.
Well next door to them.
I think that's about the third set of people
been in the house.
Well, the first set of people that lived there, okay.
I came out one day. I was out there.
And I saw the guy next door and I spoke. He spoke.
I walked over and introduced myself and everything.
So he told the little girl who is a big girl now.
Said, "Go get your mom."
And I'm talking to him, but my peripheral vision,
I can see out of the corner of my eye.
His wife walked to the door.
She saw who it was me.
And she turned around and went back in the house.
I said, "Oh, these are the kinds of people
I'm dealing with, okay."
We talked for a while, and so I came on back. Okay.
Now this girl that used to live across the street over there
got a twin sister that living down the street from me.
Stephanie and whatever her sister's name.
Well, the mother was living over here
with the dad and everything.
They dad would speak.
Mama wouldn't speak. Daughters wouldn't speak.
And so, when I would leave they used to have a little group
that would gather on the sidewalk
out there in the summertime
cause it wasn't as hot as it is now.
So I would go walk in the evening time.
When I would go out,
I'm on this side because they're on that side.
Guys in one group. Ladies in one group.
I'll speak.
Ladies head to back. Wouldn't say a word.
Guys, "Good evening," waving and going on. Okay.
And so we was,
something came up in our Sunday School lesson about this.
So I say, "You know one thing,"
I told them about my neighbors next door.
Well finally they moved.
They moved to Dallas.
He had to go to Dallas and they rented out the house.
Well, I never met the people that moved in.
And so they moved back.
When they moved back, the little girl had grown up
and she done had another little girl.
And so she's been waving and speaking ever since.
And so has the dad.
So Stephanie's dad would always speak.
And we would talk out in the street.
And so I found out that his favorite team
was the Denver Broncos.
And so we formed this relationship.
And he's in bad health right now. Bless his heart.
So when my son was here,
I took him down there to meet him,
to take pictures with him and everything.
Well, Stephanie talks to me.
And I'll never forget it.
Booker T Washington School never was recognized
for the state championships that they won.
Ricky Warren got together with somebody
and they raised this money.
They had a ceremony last year at one of the home games.
Well I got a plaque for my husband
because he was deceased and he didn't get a ring.
And I heard these people yelling up there,
and I couldn't see too good, up in the stand.
I could tell they wasn't black.
They were just waving and hollering, "Hey Mary!
Hey Ms. Mary! Hey Ms. Mary!"
Come to find out about it, it was them.
Stephanie and her sister.
(Jasmine laughing)
Jasmine: So everything done changed
after all these years.
-: Her little girl next door to me, the baby girl,
She'll run up to me,
and she'll jump up in my arms and everything.
"You got any cake?"
Cause one day I was getting out of the car and I had cake
and I gave them some cake.
And I'll never forget.
One day I had gone.
I wanted a donut so bad and I love apple fritters.
So I went up to Shipley's, and then I came back.
I had two donuts and a apple fritter.
And so the little girl she said,
"Ms. Mary, do you have donuts in that bag?"
I said, "Yeah."
"Can I have one?"
Her mother saying, "No, no, no."
I said, "Yeah, she can have one."
And so her and her cousin was over there. So he wanted some.
She said, "They can share."
I say, "No, he can have this one."
I said, "Cause I really don't need it."
So by that time the big girl, the daughter,
came out the house and she wanted one.
I gave her the apple fritter.
So I wound up with nothing.
But we speak.
When I'm going out of town,
if they're home I tell her.
And now the new lady that lives
across the street, they're friends.
And of course, I tell Alice I'm going out of town.
Like I go to Denver for a couple of weeks or whatever.
If I go on a cruise, I say, "I'm gonna be gone."
And she looks after my house, you know.
And I tell them, I said, if you see anybody getting anything
from over here, they don't have no business coming here.
Now the only somebody got a key to my house
was David Lee's sister, Diane.
The one.
I've been friends with her family for a long time.
When we used to have the Las Bella Donna's club,
I was in the Las Bella Donnas.
So we had debs, and Diane was my deb.
And when I lost my mother, I told her mother,
I call her mother Memaw,
I couldn't call her Ms. Harris after that.
For whatever reason, I was drawn right in. I started crying.
And I said, "Christmas is coming up
and my mama always cooked me this pineapple cake.
And I'm gonna miss my cake."
And Memaw say, "I'm not your mother.
And I can't be your mother.
But I will be the next thing to it."
And I'm going, "Okay."
I said, "What I'm a call you?"
And she said, "You can call me whatever.
You can call me Memaw, whatever."
But I couldn't call her Ms. Harris.
And if I go now and say, "Ms. Harris."
"What did you call me?"
I'll say, "Oh. I'm sorry Memaw."
So Diane, now, I trust Diane in everything.
She got the code to the alarm system and everything.
And her brother there, David Lee, they'll come out here.
They'll check the house out and everything.
You know, and they'll go back.
Them the only somebody besides my daughter,
has the key to my house.
So I trust her immensely.
Jasmine: Yeah. And so we were talking about the KKK,
and we were doing an interview with someone who was younger.
He's probably early 30s, mid to early 30s.
And he was talking about how the KKK was allowed
to recruit at Conroe High in the '90s and 2000s.
-: Okay, I remember the KKK coming to Conroe
and I was working at the courthouse.
They had a rally, downtown Conroe.
And I hated being out there.
And these two little young white boys came back
and they was talking about the people with the basketball.
So Salinas and I had to be standing there,
thank God I was standing with Salinas
when I made this comment,
or it might have been rowdy.
Said, "Yeah, that's all they know to get is the basketball,
the basketball, the basketball."
I had to open my mouth.
I say, "If you had a basketball in your hand
instead of that mic talking stupid,"
I said, "You'd be a multimillionaire too."
(both laughing)
-: And walked off.
Jasmine: Wow. And so when they were allowed
to do the rally, where did they do the rally?
-: Downtown Conroe.
-: And what year did you say? -: On Main Street.
-: Oh gosh, it was in the '90s.
I'm sure. Yeah, it had to be.
And they came to Conroe once again, but I didn't work it.
I wasn't even here.
Oh, they wanted us to go to East County
when they was over there.
I made myself scarce. I won't lie.
I don't like confrontation. I don't like that.
I know how I am, you know.
Jasmine: Cause at that time you were
in the Sheriff's Department?
-: Yeah. And I was going to be out of town.
I made myself be out of town,
made sure that I wasn't nowhere around.
And they didn't cancel my vacation.
Whatever days I had put in, I just, I left.
I just didn't take part in it. I didn't like it.
Jasmine: So why do you think the KKK has remained,
I guess consistent and constant in the area?
-: I guess they must have a good leader.
I guess, good leadership, I guess.
And they knew how to recruit.
Because, you know, going from Conroe to Cleveland,
they used to be on the side of the road down there
and they'd be selling they flags.
But whatever reason, they had to stop.
And they were saying that sometime if you go down 59,
you used to see them on 59.
Places like that, I caught myself staying away.
As a matter of fact,
they got this young white boy that rides around here
with that Confederate flag on the back of his truck.
And one day I saw him going towards Duggan.
I said, "Boy, you going the wrong place
with that Confederate flag flying like that."
And I seen him ride around out here.
And so I don't know if he knew anybody out here, whatever
but I've seen him right out here.
And if you pass by that white cemetery
on 10th Street and 105,
and I was telling Ms. Smith about it,
she lives in Manor quarters.
There was three Confederate flags on graves out there.
As a matter of fact,
the other day I happen to be looking over there.
I could still see one Confederate flag
on the grave over there.
But to each his own.
But you know, they say it don't stand for
whatever we think it stand for.
But see, we got a different opinion,
being of color, about that.
And I think it's all wrong.
And I'm glad that in the States they made them
take them flags down.
Because you know, it's racist to me, and I don't like it.
I don't like Dixie, you know.
Uh-uh
Jasmine: And how have things changed in Conroe over time,
would you say?
-: I'm out here in a white neighborhood.
There are other blacks out here.
Once upon a time you couldn't move
into a white neighborhood.
You know, we moving wherever we want to move to now.
And I particularly just picked this place
because it was white.
I was looking for a decent place to move to
because over there I got tired of my...
Cause I had a bedroom upstairs
and the patio door with a deck.
I got tired of my patio door vibrating,
my whole house vibrating with that boom, boom, boom.